Thursday, March 18, 2010

Dear Mr Wilson

Quote Kent Wilson: "So, let's see...questioning the motivation of those conducting economic studies. Fallacious ad hominem attack. The stadium versus bus terminal thing is a false dichotomy. Those aren't the two choices. Asserting that the economic trickle down benefits of a Flames win is somehow 1.) large enough to justify multi-million dollar public subsidies into pro sports teams and 2.) relevant to the town of Abbotsford with it's 3,500 fans/night and high probability for yearly operating losses is baseless. And then the assertion that whatever happens under the governance of elected officials is consistently and explicitly the direct will of the constituents is so plainly at odds with reality that you might as well have claimed the sky is orange. Unless the voters of Abbotsford are willing to stage a bloody coup, throw out the current politicians and tear up the deal, their hands are basically tied till the next election. At which point the deal has already been signed. Pork barrel spending, rent seeking and bureaucratic corruption occur all the time in democracies, often in the face of opposition and to the direct detriment of the public at large." End quote.

Domebeers, you got a take?

Let's see, taking an academic study at face value in the face of the entire history of academic fraud is at best very naive. Was the paper peer reviewed, or something?

Also a local economic benefit as justification to build stadiums is not baseless, its entirely relevant. These things are amortized over at least 30 years, and the money is spent in the first couple of years. Where is it spent? Do martians build it? I bet they spend that money on martians and not the local work force. Obviously benefits apply to all stadiums, which means all one had to do was to extrapolate the benefits derived in Calgary to the benefits received in Abbotsford after a Heat win, on a smaller scale. But you knew that and were just going for an easy line, I know, because I do that.

As to whether or not people get the governments they deserve? It's very easy to look up how the people voted on the measure: 54.8% majority to build the stadium. Simple research Kent. The people voted for it. Your problem is with democracy, not with me for pointing it out. That number wasn't hard to find. It is almost like you didn't even look.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's look up Mr. Noll and Mr. Zimbalists resumes, shall we?

They are very easy to find:

Noll (click Curriculum Vitae)


These guys have never held a job outside of academia ever, and they are going to tell me what creates and doesn't create value? Obviously, they are suspect people to use as your champions. Honestly, Kent, for a guy who likes his advance stats and research, the fact that you didn't do a background check on this is a little surprising.

If you have an agenda against this kind of public policy, then say so.
Kent, I will be honest with you. I very much appreciate the support you have given Domebeers. You put me on your blogroll at fivehole, and you probably added 20 daily readers to my site by doing that. I haven't cracked 100 daily yet, so that number is noticeable. But this isn't your best work, in my opinion, and it doesn't look good on you.

This is also posted as a response to the original comment on

Furthermore, I think Peter Loubardias should be fired.


  1. Flames nation are dick eaters.

    There're owned by Oils nation, and are no CP

    And at least domebeers is not on the corporate tip.

    Abbotsford should honour the contract they signed.

    Also, when is Terry Crisp comeing home to do colour? Charlie simmer belongs commenting in the special olympics!

  2. Gentlemen,

    Claiming a couple of PhD's in economics don't know what they're talking about is not only an ad hominem attack, it's a poor one. Hell, they've written and published a book on the subject, but you decide after a glance at their resumes that they aren't qualified to opine on the subject? You have thus far provided no actual evidence of the validity of your point of view aside to attack the people who disagree with you, which is, as I mentioned before, empty rhetoric..

    As for the case for publicly funding stadiums - there's mountains of research showing that it mostly just spreads entertainment dollars around rather than providing new value. It's practically orthodoxy in economic research. The fight now is over whether stadiums provide non-tangible "wellness of life" benefits that aren't necessarily captured in terms of dollars and sense.

    As for the democracy, well, yes, the people of Abbotsford decided to build their publicly funded stadium. My real beef was, in fact, with the terrible subsequent deal the city signed with the Flames in the aftermath. Did they vote on that too? I somehow doubt it.

    Public investment into private enterprises is always a sticky issue because politicians as spending other peoples money. The incentives are always therefore skewed towards benefitting either the private party in question or the politicians in question, at the expense of joe taxpayer. Whenever public money gets involved, I always ask myself "why wasn't there private funding available?" and the answer routinely is that the deal is terrible an nobody risking their own capital would touch it with a 10 foot pole.

    In the end, I almost admire the Flames for the deal they signed. It's a piece of "Machiavellian art" as Sideshow Bob would say. But I would suggest that it's almost guaranteed to cost the people of Abbotsford a lot of money.

    I appreciate the debate fellas, but your take has thus far strikes me as fairly glib.

  3. @ Anonymous

    Are you suggesting that Kent W is somehow tainted because FN is part of a larger organization run by Oiler fans? Please don't tell me you are that stupid.

  4. FN is taited because he is accountable to a corporation, & they cannot be his own men. What self respecting flames blog would want to be owned by oiler people anyways. Rubber you are a retard b/c you don't seem to get that FN cannot bite the hand that feeds it, much like the radio and newpaper people in this city. You probobly read a newspaper, and go, gee, the writer must have no bias of the ownership. Get real!

  5. Hey Wilson, why dont you take some advanced Econ class and find out how those jackasses get their numbers. Indifference curves and utility are subjective, making the field subjective. So if the field is subject then their report must also be... SUBJETIVE and NOT OBJECTIVE. Economists , are NOT FINACNE PEOPLE and live in their own worlds, based on assumptions that are required to get a desired result. Anyways, To quote wiki "Abbotsford metropolitan area as defined by Census Canada (which includes Mission) had the highest property crime rate and the second highest violent crime rate for cities with a population of 100,000 to 500,000 in Canada" Abb's has got problems but its not with the hockey team! Abb's will lose a ton of money, but hey, recalls from AAA are so close, who cares. Abb's be careful what you wish for!

  6. Wilson:

    Do you know that ur girl Arianna Huffington got rich and famous off divorcing some homo?

    What school of economics is that?

    PS: Can we start talking if the fans would pay more to send Cory and Kot. down next year? I would!